The Net is Dead

Marco van Hylckama Vlieg on web technology, design, life and everything

Commentary

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• At 07 November '05 - 14:15 stefan wrote:

  

  Symfony looks good. Wasp also looks very good though.

  
  

• At 07 November '05 - 14:30 Max wrote:

  

  Frankly, all this RoR-wannabee-malarkey is getting on my nerves. I’m not the greatest fan of frameworks, and all this RoR stuff is, IMO, distracting.
  
  “Here, look, if you make it trough the tough-as-hell installation procedure, make sure that you’ve CHMODded about 212352 directories juuuuust right, and then howl to the moon at precisely the right time…
  ...see, you can code ‘hello world’ in just one line of code! This framework is teh roxor!”
  
  Bah humbug.
  Real men don’t do frameworks. =]

  
  

• At 07 November '05 - 14:40 stefan wrote:

  

  I actually was looking at Wasp and the (PEAR-based) install was quite easy. worked like a charm. With only a single directory to chmod.
  
  Still, I’ve never been convinced that MVC is a good design pattern for php/webbased solutions. So that is my main gripe with these frameworks.

  
  

• At 07 November '05 - 14:46 Marco wrote:

  

  Hahahaha…. I know what you mean. I went through some hair-splitting, agonizing hours full of brain seizures almost ending up throwing my computer out of the window. Hours of horrible pain, desperately trying to get RoR going for the Typo theme contest, ending up with a ‘development environment’ slower than a Commodore 64 server. But… I got it to run!
  
  And damn, a G5 would crash REALLY hard when falling down 7 floors all the way down. Thank God I got it to run just before I did that. Phew…
  
  Anyway, I can see your point. However, I also hate doing the same thing over and over and over again which is why a framework would come in handy. I’ll definitely take a look at Symfony and Wasp. (After I finish my Typo theme, which will probably take a while, considering the speed I mentioned earlier).
  
  Ah well… these things keep us off the street now don’t they?

  
  

• At 16 November '05 - 05:30 Tracey wrote:

  I checked out the framework after reading your post, and it looks nice. Marco good job on that theme also! You have a new fan.

  
  

• At 16 November '05 - 20:45 chris wrote:

  Here’s the rub: a lot of people consider themselves web developers. They tend to come from both the comp sci/engineering world and the graphic design world. The comp sci guys who’ve been around the block a few times can see the benefit of patterns like MVC not because of the time it saves upfront — it usually doesn’t — but primarily for the time it saves six months down the road when requirements start changing. If you’re just building yet another poll or e-mail for for an otherwise static site, it’s overkill. If you’re a designer by background and experience, you’re not going to appreciate it. But if you’ve been banging out Java apps using Struts for 2-3 years and like the near universal deployability of PHP, you’ll appreciate symfony.
  
  Disclaimer: symfony forked from the mojavi project, a PHP4 MVC framework. I used mojavi a lot, so symfony is my foray into PHP5.
  
  Just please stop calling it a PHP5 “Ajax” framework. Ajax is eye candy on top of the real muscle here.

  
  

• At 16 November '05 - 22:31 Marco wrote:

  

  Where in this entire thread did you read the word ‘Ajax’ ?

  
  

• At 27 December '05 - 03:58 Mike wrote:

  

  I think what Rails has going for it is not only the framework itself, but that it is written in Ruby. The elegance of the language is what’s going to carry its popularity. PHP is still awkward to code in.

  
  

• At 28 December '05 - 04:51 Marco wrote:

  

  For some reason all Ruby enthousiasts state that ‘coding in PHP is awkward’. I completely fail to understand this statement. Could this be some sort of cognitive dissonance on the Ruby side of life?
  
  There’s nothing awkward about programming in PHP that I can see really.

  
  

• At 13 February '07 - 07:05 Jonathan Wage wrote:

  

  1.) PHP is more ackward to type than ruby. It is simple, the character required for the syntax are contain less shift key situations.
  
  PHP:
  
  if( $test )
  {
  
  }
  
  Ruby:
  
  if test
  
  end
  
  With php I had to hold use shift for 4 characters. I know that seems like nothing, which it is. But when you get on a roll, the ruby code is much fluid and easier to type. I never have to go back and correct a type in ruby, but in php it is just one extra thing to have to worry about, parenthesis, brackets, dollar signs, etc…
  
  2.) Max, I don’t know what installation you were working with, either it was a broken one or you were smoking angel dust that day. if you can’t install rails, then you aren’t a web developer, and based on your comments you REALLY aren’t a web developer..
  
  I have been developing for about 8 years now and started from the ground up with early versions of php. I have used crappy php frameworks, I have used my own php frameworks, I have used symfony, and I have used rails. When you develop application after application, you start to see trends, and I see things that are needed no matter the size of the application. And every project we go through the same things. A framework solves this problem, they have taken care of all the trivial stuff required to build a powerful web application that is easy to maintain and debug.
  
  I have noticed that a lot of php developers(script kiddies) are angry whenever someone tries to down php or someone brings in a new technology that could shadow php. You will never become a true developer if you cannot get past this, php will not be the top dog forever and is already fading as new technologies become available.
  
  My own personal opinion is that rails is the top dog of all the frameworks out there, and for these reasons:
  
  1.) Deployment. If you have ever managed a large web application across dozens of servers, it is not possible to do manually. You could write your own deployment scripts, but why? Capistrano rocks and they have thought of everything for you.
  2.) Integration with SVN/CVS for Capistrano.
  3.) Execute your applications from the command line.
  4.) Unit testing. Why in the hell would you troubleshoot issues the OLD FASHIONED way when you have robots at your finger tip WAITING to be programmed to do the awesome Q/A testing.
  5.) Logging. It logs everything, don’t have to think about it. This is a major troubleshooting/debugging tool.
  6.) The data modeling in rails..
  
  blah blah blah..I could go on and on just naming all the things I use on a daily basis but have never had to put development time towards or any brain power towards. Where if I was not using a framework, every time I need something the frameworks have, I have to develop it or hack something up :) no bueno my friend..

  
  

• At 13 February '07 - 17:10 Max wrote:

  

  No, Jonathan, I wasn’t smoking angel dust that day (or any day, for that matter), and really, what brings you to the conclusion that I’m not a web developer? Maybe, just MAYBE, you didn’t catch the sarcastic tone in my comment, but I don’t see why that’s a reason to call me something I’m not. Or call me not something that I am. Whatever.
  
  I’m not scared of Ruby. I’m not scared of any language, actually. The problem is: I simply don’t have the luxury of having enough time to learn them. I’m not being paid for horsing around with a new language, framework or whatnot, I’m paid to, you know, deliver stuff. Even if Ruby, or any other language, is easier, prettier, or less-shift-using — I can actually agree to that argument, there you go — I still have to take out the time to get to know it. I do know PHP, and I can deliver stuff with it.
  
  Another issue is availability: I can pretty much bet my left testicle on the fact that Webhoster X is going to have PHP installed on his servers. Maybe not PHP5, but for most things PHP4 will do perfectly. Finding a hoster that does RoR is going to be a bit harder. Now imagine that Customer Y already has a web site and is not willing to move around his hosting stuff.
  
  Calling me “not a web designer” and PHP developers “script kiddies” is not going to change those facts in the least. You may try to educate me and enlighten me — and hope that my situation, whether you agree with it or not, can be changed — and that might even work. Name-calling is not.

  
  

• At 13 February '07 - 17:14 Max wrote:

  

  I should’ve checked out your site before commenting, it would’ve saved me a lot of typing: in your resume, I see only references to PHP/MySQL sites.
  
  Welcome to the script kiddies club.

  
  

• At 13 February '07 - 18:19 Jonathan Wage wrote:

  

  Those are all good points. Which all I have had several discussions about and can understand WHY you would choose PHP over Ruby/Rails. We can always bet on having a standardized environment for our php projects. At any rate, I am simply talking about the better technical language and framework. It may not be the best “choice” for your customers right now, but it will never become that way if you do not have people willing to learn the luxuries available with these great tools.
  
  You would be amazed at the time you save when using these frameworks, and rails has symfony beat as far as the tools available for web applications, hands down.
  
  I deliver also, and I strive to deliver something better each time to our clients. To be on top of the latest technology, after all that is what we are hired for.
  
  Also, can you not see why PHP would be considered more cumber sum to type than Ruby. I mean it is like comparing the size of atoms, but I find myself being able to type ruby syntax so much faster than php, combine that with rails and I see the king of frameworks.
  
  “Here, look, if you make it trough the tough-as-hell installation procedure, make sure that you’ve CHMODded about 212352 directories juuuuust right, and then howl to the moon at precisely the right time…
  ...see, you can code ‘hello world’ in just one line of code! This framework is teh roxor!”
  
  I have installed and configured rails servers several times and i have never encountered an installation where I had to do any of the things you listed above. Like you said, you haven’t given enough time to either of them in order to judge whether or not it is useful.
  
  The sites in my resume for client project experience may be all php/mysql, but they are not small projects/sites by any means. I used to be a member of the php script kiddy crew several years ago, but I knew I didn’t want to stay at that level forever, so that brings us to where I am today. Loving rails/symfony and starting a new life with them :)

  
  

• At 13 February '07 - 18:22 Jonathan Wage wrote:

  

  I do understand that change is hard, I used to not mesh well with change, but I have tried to force myself to allow it to happen so that I can grow and learn about all the things that are better than what I am doing now. Because I know that their will always be something new and better behind every new technology and if i don’t adapt i will, well…not be valuable eventually…if i never learn new things..

  
  

• At 14 February '07 - 11:35 Marco wrote:

  

  I honestly don’t believe anymore that any programming language with it’s associated hot framework or set of libraries is ever going to be the holy grail of software development.
  
  I agree that Ruby has a lean and mean syntax. However, I don’t think it’s of major importance to the process of application development. Only a very small percentage of time writing code is spent on actual typing anyway. I’ve seen examples of Ruby being more elegant than PHP in certain cases but I wonder how important that really is in the big picture.
  
  I’m sure every development environment has it’s advantages and disadvantages compared to alternative solutions. I just don’t believe any of them is ‘better’ than other ones or makes software development really significantly easier. The fundamental process of software design and development just doesn’t really get different when switching to another environment, at least it isn’t when doing it MVC style.
  
  What’s left is pros and cons associated to each individual language/framework that may influence the decision which one to choose. In some cases PHP may be the best choice, in other cases Ruby may be. Or something completely different. It just really depends on the situation in my opinion.
  
  As far as I’m concerned all the rest is merely zealotism and fanboy behaviour.
  
  Just my 5 cents of course…

  
  

• At 14 February '07 - 11:44 Jonathan Wage wrote:

  

  I agree that the frameworks/environments are about the same between them, and you need to look at the pros/cons for each project. Right now for me, if hosting is not an issue than I will pick rails each time due to the number of tools available that symfony does not have. The most important one being deployment, imo.
  
  It really isn’t the software development you save time on with frameworks, it is the trivial things you are required to do to build a web application no matter WHAT language, and having these frameworks do all the work for you in that regard, then you can solely concentrate on the actual development of the software, and not the technologies for web applications that already exist out there.

  
  

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